McQuaid’s actions aimed at avoiding scandal – without concern for young

McQuaid’s actions aimed at avoiding scandal – without concern for young

PATSY McGARRY

ABUSE COMPLAINTS: The Murphy report was clear in its assessment of the role of the former archbishop of Dublin

THE MURPHY report is unequivocal on Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, archbishop of Dublin from 1940 to 1972.

While the report, published in 2009, makes no reference to sex abuse complaints against the late archbishop himself, it pulls no punches when it comes to his handling of the issue in general.

“The claim that bishops and senior church officials were on ‘a learning curve’ about child sexual abuse rings hollow when it is clear that cases were dealt with by Archbishop McQuaid in the 1950s and 1960s and that, although the majority of complaints emerged from 1995 onwards, many of the complaints described in this report first came to the attention of the Archdiocese in the 1970s and 1980s.”

It said that: “For many years offenders were neither prosecuted nor made accountable within the Church. Archbishop McQuaid was well aware of the canon law requirements and even set the processes in motion, but did not complete them.”

Of the archbishops of Dublin it said “not one of them reported his knowledge of child sexual abuse to the gardaí throughout the 1960s, 1970s, or 1980s”.

Of Archbishop McQuaid it said: “It is clear that his dealings with Fr Edmondus in 1960 were aimed at the avoidance of scandal and showed no concern for the welfare of children.”

Fr Edmondus was the pseudonym used in the Murphy report for Fr Paul McGennis, who abused Marie Collins in 1960 when she was a patient at Our Lady’s Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin, in Dublin. He was a chaplain there. The archbishop was chairman of its board.

In June 1997 McGennis pleaded guilty to his abuse of Ms Collins and was sentenced to 18 months. Days later he received a nine-month concurrent sentence for his 1976 abuse of a girl aged nine in Wicklow.

The Murphy report found that Archbishop McQuaid “made a comprehensive handwritten record of his dealings with Fr Edmondus in 1960”. It stated: “The handing over of the Fr Edmondus case to Archbishop McQuaid by Commissioner Costigan was totally inappropriate.”

In August 1960, “Archbishop McQuaid was informed that a security officer at a photographic film company in the UK had referred colour film sent to them for developing by Fr Edmondus to Scotland Yard. Scotland Yard referred the matter to the Commissioner of the Gardaí,” who referred it to Archbishop McQuaid, who noted of his meeting with Costigan the latter indicated the film involved 26 explicit transparencies of “two small girls, aged 10 or 11 years”.

The archbishop met Fr McGennis the next day and the priest admitted taking the photographs, motivated by his curiosity about female anatomy, he said. Archbishop McQuaid noted: “I would get [a doctor] a good Catholic to instruct him and thus end his wonderment.” He concluded there was “not an objective and subjective crime of the type envisaged in the 1922 instruction and consequently that there was no need to refer the matter to the Holy Office in Rome”.

The Murphy report said Archbishop McQuaid’s conclusion that Fr Edmondus’s actions arose from a “wonderment” about the female anatomy was “risible”. It said: “The apparent cancellation by Archbishop McQuaid of his original plan to pursue the priest through the procedures of canon law was a disaster. It established a pattern of not holding abusers accountable which lasted for decades.”

On July 29th last, McGennis, now 81, was given a six-year sentence, with the final four years suspended, at the Circuit Criminal Court for the abuse of a young girl in Dublin between 1980 and 1984, beginning when she was 11.

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Category: Child Abuse

29 comments on “McQuaid’s actions aimed at avoiding scandal – without concern for young

  1. Thanks again Pauline.

    Nothing clumsy about you or any Victim/Survivor of horrendous Irish Abuse, that’s for sure. Your words explain – EXPOSE – better than any fancy writer could ever do – HOW YOU, AND COUNTLESS OTHERS, WERE “DAMNED IF YOU WERE – and DAMNED IF YOU WEREN’T….. and having to feel bad, and guilty as well. Once again, I can’t believe my eyes nor my ears, at how very well EDUCATED PEOPLE, CLEVER ORDINARY FOLKS “AND” INTELLECTUALS, could be SO baffled, bemused and beF..ked, that they are NOT able to rise in revolution against these TYRANTS and continue speaking in grand tones and phrases ……. as if Ulysses was MORE important than the fact that a Father was an UN-predictable Violent Drunk (James Joyce’s father), and that as Ireland MOST CHERISHED son, James Joyce could not even come and have a decent dying in his own country…. Not for him early glory. In his case, the sins of the fathers would mean DISEASE, BLINDNESS and desperate SOLITUDE.

    At least you’re here Pauline, PROTESTING with all your might, and AT LAST hopefully, “SOME” PEOPLE HEAR YOU……

    I include the following, with the HIGHEST PRIORITY, from one whom I TRUST, KNOW and BELIEVE. Click on “Amazon” and you’ll be able to browse through the book

    January 3, 2012

    ANNOUNCEMENT

    Friends:

    Please put “Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment” by Janet Heimlich at the top of your books-to-read list. Don’t delay. Do it now. You’ll thank me. I promise.

    For details about Ms. Heimlich’s work and writing, visit her Web site, “Religious Child Maltreatment,” at http://www.religiouschildmaltreatment.com/. To order her book , click on Amazon.

    I wish you a happy and productive New Year.

    Jordan Riak

    PLAIN TALK about SPANKING by Jordan Riak

  2. In the institutions our bodies were defiled every way possable. When hair appeared under the arms the girl was told that she was a dirty animal.our mothers were held responsable for our suffering. the sins of the perents will be visited on the children. And our future was described as having a red light over the door . we would be beaten by drunken men and thats all we deserved. it took years to learn to clame my rights. in fact i am still learning. we can share our experences we have done nothing wrong .only a bit clumsy.

  3. On Christmas Eve afternoon, RTE Radio 1 played 2 short documentaries about Mary the Mother of God. REPEATEDLY during the programs, these words were quotED from Holy texts and Scriptures: IMPURE – IMPURITY – PURIFY – and DEFILED. Here are some synonyms for DEFILED: debased, degraded, disgraced, dishonoured, stained, spoiled, desecrated, impure, foul, dirty, polluted, profane, spoiled, tainted, unclean….

    These are the words TAKEN from Catholic texts on a Christmas Day, to describe WOMEN, CHILDBIRTH and PROCREATION, when women are not the Mother-of-God-Herself-NO-LESS ! These words are precisely the way Catholic men and women have been brainwashed (with children paying an even heavier price). This is what Men of God really think of women. How STUPID can we be? How DEAF and BLIND are we to even TOLERATE ANOTHER WORD from such an organization as the Catholic Church and the people who say these words ON HER BEHALF ? How can we wallow in the so-called “good deeds”, instead of CONCENTRATING ON THE “BAD BAD STUFF……..???

    So Pauline, keep telling us your story. And thank you for speaking in the Details-of-Memorial-to-Abuse post, about “…the lovely dark haired little girl whose body was laid out in the dormitory; or the small child held under the tap in the yard to stop her from crying. she died too…” In this way YOU are the Memorial, and THEM TOO.

  4. Thanks for your kind words. what i am trying to get across is the fact that the abuse did not finish for us when we left those institutions because of the missconsception of the outside world. this was no accident. as many women finished up in the madelaine homes. you see we ladies were told that we had to protect our verginity but not what it was. we dident know that it was about childbearing. i thought it was like my soul.all these stories about starving saints going away into the desert to protect thier verginity was not going to help us outside the institutions.I think we all have this in common.improvising throughout our lives. i try and share this with other survivers who have lived in confusion. i dont know if any more stories would interest anybody. i think that what we say here will help in the future because so many fanatics teach in catholic schools all over the world.

  5. Hello Pauline.

    I have no doubt that your story is every bit as terrible as everyone else’s. Why don’t you write a book about it? This way you can tell the world how it was for YOU, and let all around you, family and friends, be very clear about who you are, their friend, mum or wife? Write down everything, from the very beginning. There’s plenty of help around for this kind of inspiring work.

    You could also put it on film: get it recorded to a Video camera. I believe that such live stories, as Yours and others Survivors, would be a fitting Memorial and Testament to this awful page of Irish history. This was done in Canada in a very moving and poignant filmed document.

    I hope that Christmas is no longer like this for you. Share of yourself with the people around you, family, friends or Mum, ‘coz “YOU ARE THE GIFT.”

    Here is the link to the K.Annett’s film UNREPENTANT. I think it is already up on Paddy’s site somewhere. When you open that link, you will find lots more clips and stories on the right hand side.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133

  6. THanks Raymond. Well the goldenbridge i was in was also called St vincents industriel school. when we went to court thats where we were condemed to but otherwise it was called goldenbridge. but the orphanage and the industriel school was the same place. by the mid 70ths it had been burnt down. in my comments i am trying to be honest about the effects of abuse caused by these fanatics. thay are still abusing others in other countrys. ever since i was a small child everyone hes been told to help them to convert africans. millions have been spent and the result is people fleeing thier own country because of religion. thay destroy cultures wherever thay go. if we dont talk about the long term effects people wont know. its not just about childhood its also about the thousands of children brought up in these places and totally inadapted to society. sent out to find thier own way of looking out for themselves. example i knew how to make rosary beads. to keep my mouth shut when i was being shouted at. but i did not know how to find a place to live. if others from the instutions have the same problems well we can talk about it on here. thanks to paddy we can say what it feels like.Its nearly xmas. mmy childhood memories are of waiting for the head nun to call my number then go and get my toothpaste in a small box two sweets and one stamp. these were in a brown paper bag with my number on it . all the rest was prayers and masses and feeling like i could sleep upright. i hope no child ever has to go through that.the ingrained fear stays and effects our reactions throughout life.

  7. It is very sad and saddening to see your last post Pauline. I know this Fear very well: it is the result of their diabolical scheming, outright brainwashing, enforced through control and violence. On defenseless and (always) innocent children. I “came across Goldenbridge” 30 years ago. So when the stories started to come out, I knew that this wasn’t just about the 50′s and 60′s, but was still taking place right there and then in the bloody 80′s…. It is totally wrong and scandalous that you should still be a prisoner of THEIR anger and maybe deny yourself the right you have to come back to Ireland and travel freely as you wish. There are ways to find healing, and there is help, if only we can find it . You’re welcome to email me at raymondlambert@eircom.net I know you’re scared and I understand. Try to say to yourself, you don’t have to be afraid of Anger.

  8. It is a terrable war . i feel very upset when i read thigs about how people have suffered from this lot of perverts. it does make me feel angry when i read what people are forced to do in order to protect themselves. the quinn has a cheek expecting people to swallow such a lye. well as for anger it does frighten me . i was in goldenbridge from 1952 to 1961. thier only way of expressing anything was through anger and voilence. and ever since i get scared by anger.I couldnt go back to Ireland because i obsconded as thay say. i had a big fear of getting caught. also you know the level of education given by the nuns was useless. history lessons were about priests and nuns wearing horses skins. beuk i liked horses and i dident like the idea of a skinless horse.it was very unhealthy for children to be learning things like that. i came out of there convinced i wanted to be a mamifer.

  9. Since I squarely blame Religion/s to be actually the root of all evil in our societies, I don’t spend any time talking about it.

    With regards to the Catholic Church, my only comments are to condemn and denounce Her foul deeds and standards, as acted by Her Princes and Servants.

    I was very pleased to read today that attendance to masses has nose-dived. Maybe – unknowingly (and therefore with little credit to them) – the people are beginning to vote with their feet, while their hands seemed tied, their hearts frozen and their heads DEAD.

    Read here the statistics:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1214/1224309043514.html

    With regards to ANGER: this is unfortunately what is missing THE MOST from the picture, and has been missing for years.

    Have no fear from Anger Pauline. It is the ONLY emotion which gets things done.

    I see Mannix Flynn’s play “JAMES X” is hitting the stage in New York. Pity it’s not played here on a continuous basis and made COMPULSORY VIEWING. “IT” would be a fitting part of any MEMORIAL to the Abuse and Abused in Ireland.

  10. It was not just Ireland that suffered.

    http://www.reformation.org/vietnam.html

    With an immense collection of facts, photos, names and dates, Manhattan proves that the Vietnam War began as a religious conflict. He shows how America was manipulated into supporting Catholic oppression in Vietnam supposedly to fight communism.

    Manhattan explains:

    How religious pamphlets and radio broadcasts convinced one million Catholics to leave North Vietnam and live under Catholic rule in the South, overwhelming the Buddhists.

    How brutal persecution of Vietnamese Buddhists led to rioting and suicides by fire in the streets.

    Why the reports of what was really happening, written by American military and civil advisers, failed to reach the U.S. President.

    Why the project backfired, and as U.S. soldiers continued to die, the Vatican made a secret deal with Ho Chi Minh.

  11. Hi Pauline. in 1172 the land of Eire and all her people were given by Pope Adrian 1V to King Henry 11 of England to keep us under control because of our advanced civilisation and spirituality- Tir Na nOg was not a myth.

    Roll on 2011 and watch the Queen return to Cashel on instruction of the Pope to renew the timeline. It did not work this time however, and the boy was sent packing back to the Vatican. We were not taught our true history at all. Not a word re burning the children in a circle around Tara TO FORCE PARENTS TO CONVERT and submit to the Pope- who claims to own all of this Earth, waters and people.

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

    How about that for men of God.!!

    Just a few of the tortures that ‘heretics’ went through:
    • Skin flayed from head, face and body
    • Noses, nipples and breasts pulled off with red hot pinchers
    • Fried or boiled alive or roasted on a spit
    • Mouth slit back to ears
    • Crucified upside down
    • Thrown from windows on to spears
    • Arms cut off
    • Torturous slow burning, soles of feet, then up to ankles, mid-calf, etc.
    • Women stripped, hung from trees by their hair and scourged or left hanging by one leg until dead
    • Tourniquet placed on head and twisted until eyes came out
    • Ears bored out
    • Tongue cut out
    • Set down (by pulley) into a fire by degrees
    • Thrown to dogs
    • Hung up by the heels and choked with smoke
    • Disembowelled
    • Sharp instruments forced under nails and into other body parts
    • Racked until their bowels broke out
    • Throats cut with butcher knives
    • Knocked on the head with axes

  12. Its a lot like costumes in the cinima. its meant to impress. i have said this before but anyway her i go again. ireland was invaded by both the english and the church. people were dying in all sorts of ways and this allowed the romans to take over all the social side of life. by acting out thier so called good intentions. and thay knew the secrets that were kept except in the confessional boxes. so the power was doubled. as for religion well i keep well away from all that apart from things that are important to friends.

  13. How can a man in a dress SAVE anyone?

  14. Jackson.Pauline wrote:-

    “In Ireland the church has been promising to save people from death and no one knows how to change 2000 years of bad habits.I dont want to judge others because i dont know all the answers. We are all ignorant about death.”

    Isn’t that the problem with most, if not all, organised religions? They instil the fear of death in their “flock” – which fear they then thrive on… FEAR is a great way to control people, especially when it is instilled in a young child’s mind!

    I don’t know what you mean when you say “We are all ignorant about death”. But one thing’s for sure, we are all going to die someday, one way or another. As far as I’m concerned, the older one gets the more one accepts the inevitably of one’s death – which is why I, for example, make the most of each day as I get older (and I ain’t no Spring Chicken!).

    From my observations, the people who are most influenced by religious dogma (eg RC) are the ones who fear death the most. I feel sad for them, but I’m glad I’m not one of them. I regard my own inevitable death as the best sleep I’ll ever have, not least I’ll die knowing I did my very best to improve the lives of my children – and of course, others who were deserving of any help I could give them…

    Martha

  15. Hello again Pauline (Raymond too), I’m no expert on organised religions, but I DO know what the Catholic Church is all about, having been born and raised in Ireland, and subsequently, having travelled quite a bit around the globe and therefore experiencing a variety of cultures.

    In my view, the Catholic Church is an organisation that is hell-bent on destroying Humanity, for its own benefit and that of its Defenders and Apologists, of which there are no shortage here in Ireland – to this day!

    The way I see it is: if by the time one is past one’s teenage years and cannot see that Roman Catholic dogma is inherently misogynistic and therefore anti Human – which I regard as SOCIOPATHIC and/or PSYCHOTIC (take your pick) – then one’s ability to deal with Life in an HONEST way is seriously impaired.

    Martha

  16. Thanks for that . i was a bit worried about so much anger.I dont want to upset anyone. im sure of course that its not meant to be hurtfull as its not mine. i see things from the outside because like others on here i dont have much contact with the irish.But in all places run by the catholic church there is a lot of abuse.If some want to be part of this religion well thats not going to change in one go .

  17. Don’t worry Pauline, YOU’RE RIGHT.

    Bad is Bad.

    Wrong is Wrong.

    Crime is Crime.

    ABUSE IS NOTHING BUT ALL THE ABOVE ROLLED IN TOGETHER.

    Pauline, as you well know:

    ABUSING – HURTING – RAPING ( WHAT? RAPE ??? ) PROFITEERING – DEBASING AND DEFAMING – USING

    CHILDREN – KIDS – BABIES – THE MOST INNOCENT IN “ANY” SOCIETY – GIRLS – MOTHERS – AND YES – WOMEN

    IS THE WORST AND BIGGEST CRIME IN THE WORLD.

    I GLADLY CONCEDE TO THE JESUS’S OF EVERYWHERE….BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE (ALLEGEDLY) SAID TOO….

    EVEN “MY ALICE” AGREES ON THAT….

    Pauline, it doesn’t take much, or long, to wrap up a case, no matter how long it took to investigate.

    Six letters

    G U I L T Y

  18. The country has been influnced by the church and the result is a society where people dont think for themselves.The priests and the nuns treated the population as children the confessions closed thier minds to the harm done.But this man who represents the church is a bloody dangerous idiot to try and get of with a story of a grown man playing doctors. its no good ignoring this as its reality. in the past 50 years i have spent 3 weeks in ireland but i saw lots of signs of religions.

  19. The girl said:

    ” 101 PEOPLE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING, BUT NEVER ASKED IF WE WANTED HELP ”

    Sorry folks if this stirs up a lot of emotions, but the graphic details of this unbelievable Irish Fritzl Holocaust must be put on file, here:

    READ ON ……

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1210/1224308870161.html

  20. There are all sorts of religions. I can see that the others are no better. In Ireland the church has been promising to save people from death and no one knows how to change 2000 years of bad habits.I dont want to judge others because i dont know all the answers. We are all ignorant about death.

  21. HI all, I’ve just read the five comments on this article (which Paddy sent me) and I am still amazed that ANY Irish adult would ask themselves “what’s wrong with the Catholic Church?” sort of question.

    I mean, one is either an adult or one is not. Yes, I know it takes a long time for a human child to become an adult proper, but seriously, why would any adult have to ask what is wrong with organised religion, per se?

    For example, the first commenter on here, “jackson pauline” begins his/her comment with the following question:-

    “What a terrable coward to put in charge of peoples religion”

    What is meant by a “people’s religion”?

    I certainly don’t understand such a question. Is he or she assuming that ALL of the people in a given society/culture or country naturally believes in the same thing, i.e,. that which the Establishment dictates? Well, if that is what is meant by such a question, then include me out….

    Sorry guys, but I just don’t understand why so much credence ie., “Faith” is given to an obviously morally corrupt organisation such as the Catholic Church. I really don’t.

    Perhaps it has to do with the long lasting effects of childhood conditioning after all?

    Martha

  22. There is an illness in the minds of people who accept that abuse goes on . Rapists of adults are treated worse than rapists of children. when thay are priests people pray for them but the victims of the church are excepted to just get over it. the harm done to a child lasts a lifetime. would thay be praying and paying if it happened to thier own family .

  23. THE NEXT DAY:

    AUTHORITIES ARE

    REVIEWING THE SITUATION

    REVIEWING STRATEGIC ALTERNATIVES

    “REVIEWING ITS HANDLING OF THE CASE”

    Parents from hell: HSE told of abuse in 2000

    …..” A RAPIST father and violent mother were allowed to continue the vile abuse of their children for nine years after health authorities were first alerted.

    The HSE said it was reviewing its handling of the case of a 50-year-old man who violently raped his four daughters over two decades.

    The father was jailed yesterday for life for multiple rapes of four of his daughters between 1991 and 2009…….

    READ ALL OF IT HERE:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/parents-from-hell-hse-told-of-abuse-in-2000-2959945.html

  24. Raymond, over 70% of violent and abusive parents get full custody in secret family courts with the protective parent often written out of the child’s life. This happens if THE PROTECTIVE PARENT MENTIONS SEXUAL ABUSE OF DV. Why,??
    The solicitors say the judges are SICK TO FU**ING DEATH OF HEARING ABOUT CHILD ABUSE.

    So you are right.Nothing has changed.

    As a society, we want to deny the abuse of children by adults for fear of accepting responsibility.

    Far easier to do like the courts, HSE, etc and collude with the criminals against the Eve ill little children.

    We have to look at the old mentality of the church towards children- shi*bags, Eve ill things born of Eve ill women, born in sin and all that sh*te, thus dehumanising children to evil creatures, thus relieving the consciences of the abusers and allowing them to rape and torture children.

  25. People say all the time:

    “Things have changed today” “Things are not the same anymore” “There are many things happening behind the scenes” and “Many people are doing great work”

    And then the following article appears today (9.12.2011)

    How is this not EVERY BIT AS BAD AS THE FRITZL STORY (nearly 4 years ago) ?

    Read the story here

    http://www.independent.ie/national-and-raped-by-father-and-beaten-by-mother-news/courts/parents-from-hell-children-tortured-2959081.html

    HOW IN THE NAME OF IRELAND IS THIS STILL GOING ON UNTIL TWO YEARS AGO? Was it even – maybe – 2010 ?? “Yesterday (8.12.2011) the court heard shocking evidence of how he had abused the children UNTIL HIS ARREST – “JUST TWO YEARS AGO…….!”

    We are being re-assured every day, that these horrors are a thing of past. Then, a new one crops up.

    IS IT ANY WONDER THAT WE ARE BROKE AND BROKEN? ANY WONDER THAT IRELAND IS IN SUCH A STATE OF MORAL BANKRUPCY? This article appears on Page 14 of the newspaper. Customer Fatigue ?

    Could somebody please CATEGORICALLY STATE TODAY, that this nightmare is OVER? That MANDATORY REPORTING (**AND DIS-CLOSING**) IS ONLY DAYS AWAY?

    It is not enough, to label these people “The Ultimate Parents from Hell”. What about their very own and immediate COMMUNITY ? What about their immediate SOCIETY ? What about the very substantial SUPPORT TEAM that must have been involved for over 20 years: Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Social Workers, Social Welfare Officers and Staff, people of the Church – pious mass-goers and Priests alike, Gardai, Publicans, and hundreds of On-lookers and By-standers, Journalists, Judges……

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

  26. The legal establishments giving of suspended sentences makes punishment ring hollow. Why the ongoing leniency for these criminals other than influence to do so by sympathizers – of the church and of like minded child abusers in high places. The outing of societies professionals who are also child sex offenders or pedophiles is a story already being written.

  27. THE ARCHBISHOP’S PALACE IN DRUMCONDRA SHOULD COME DOWN AND BE DEMOLISHED, AS SWIFTLY AS THE INFAMOUS “PRIEST HOUSE” IN BALLYFERMOT, THAT OF FATHER ‘FILTH’ TONY WALSH.

  28. NOW WE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO THE ROOT OF THE EVIL OF CHILD ABUSE IN IRELAND. IT’S LIKE WITH A WART, OR VERRUCA. ARCHBISHOP McQUAID IS A POISONED SEED WHICH CONTAMINATED THE WHOLE NATION FOR NEAR-70 YEARS NOW. MAY HE NOW BURN IN HELL AND FUEL IT LONG ENOUGH TO CONSUME ALL THESE PRINCES OF EVIL AND THEIR SERVANTS.

    Read more about him in the following links:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1208/1224308744391.html

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1208/1224308743220.html

    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/inquiry-urged-into-sex-abuse-claim-2958894.html

  29. What a terrable coward to put in charge of peoples religion. As a moral guide he has proved what he is worth. These men grew up in ireland a place where people let thier kids play together. these men arent off the moon.thay change arguements every time. one minute thay were influnced by society. And then they are so very ignorant about bodys. what a load of rubbish that is .

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