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Dáil Éireann (Irish Parliament)
Volume 12
18 June, 1925

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE.REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS—VOTE 46 (RESUMED)

The PRESIDENT: The amount of this Vote is the statutory payments made by the State in addition to those made by local authorities in connection with industrial and reformatory schools. This matter, so far as the local authorities are concerned, has created some dissatisfaction. When I was a member of the Dublin Corporation objection was taken on the part of certain schools that preference had been extended in regard to certain committals in respect of some of these institutions. In recent years, from the time of the Great War or shortly afterwards, the number of committals to reformatory schools had, I understand, fallen very considerably. It was alleged that they fell from various causes. In large centres such as the city of Dublin and other cities, it was alleged to have been the result of assistance that came from these who joined the army, and, as a consequence, people who formerly had to call upon such institutions were enabled to keep their children at home. In connection with reformatory schools I am afraid that the situation has become somewhat difficult. In an Act passed about four or five years ago liability rests on local authorities to provide such institutions as reformatory schools where no such establishment is in existence. There are two such institutions. I think it is scarcely fair to call them reformatory schools [1263] or to refer to them in the way in which they have for a very long time been present in the mind of the public. I understand that boys from these institutions render a good account of themselves afterwards. One hears occasionally of a case of non-success, and that is often stressed as an argument against this method of dealing with youthful offenders or truants. However, as far as the State is concerned, its liability is expressed in the amount put down in the Vote. Personally, I have not spoken to the Minister for Finance, but I think that these particular institutions, by reason of the smallness of the number of the boys, will find it difficult to keep open their doors unless the amount is increased or a larger number of boys are sent to these schools.

Mr. JOHNSON: I am glad to hear the President's sympathetic statement regarding reformatory schools, but I think the case requires to be met a little more fully. As I understand the position, there are two reformatory schools in the Free State area which have been operating for a large number of years—I think for fifty or sixty years. These have been conducted by a religious order with the definite purpose of reforming character. I do not know whether my impression of reformatory schools was typical of the general impression or not, but I must admit, without having given very close consideration to the matter, that I always visualised the reformatory school as something very like a gaol. The idea of boys and youths being sent to a reformatory was somewhat repulsive because of the knowledge that a boy of 12, 13 or 14 years of age, if he were to go into the surroundings and the atmosphere of a gaol, or anything like a gaol, would not come away with an improved character. I had an opportunity provided, of which I took advantage not more than two weeks ago, to visit one of the reformatories in question, and I understand it is quite typical of the other, that is Glencree Reformatory School. It has been called up to now a reformatory school, or, rather, a reformatory, but I understand [1264] that the people responsible for this school have come to the very wise decision to give it a name which would be more characteristic of its quality and purpose, and have changed the name to a training school. From my observation I must say that it is entitled fully to the new designation, and, while its purpose may be to reform, it does not carry with it the impression of a punitive institution which the old name did undoubtedly carry with it.

I was particularly impressed during my visit there—the incident I understand is not peculiar but is quite common—to find that two men were visitors both of whom had in years past been trained at this reformatory. One old man who had gone to America after having done his period of service or training at the school, had progressed and, as I could gather, prospered. He had come back to Ireland and had quite deliberately taken up his residence for the summer season in the neighbourhood so that he could find himself in the old surroundings with pleasure. That is something which to me is very marked and could not apply—I think it is almost impossible for it to apply—to any normal sane human being if he were to think of this school as a jail or prison or anything approaching a jail or prison. That same remark applies to other persons, one of whom was present from the city of Dublin during my visit. Men go out frequently, strange to say if one thinks of the reformatory in the old category but not strange in view of the knowledge which my little experience gained. Men who had gone through the reformatory come back on a visit and take their children to see the schools through which these men have progressed. I think that is very notable and very well worthy of recording. I understand it is quite a common experience but it struck me as remarkable and would probably strike many people in the same light.

In a reformatory school boys below 12 are not taken. Boys from 12 to 16 are sent to these schools and I can see quite well that while there is strict discipline, there is an amount of freedom and friendliness between the boys with each other and between the boys and [1265] their masters, their teachers and their directors. I think in every way the school is fairly entitled to be characterised as a training school and it occurs to me that our attitude in regard to these schools should be modified according to this conception. Undoubtedly there are all kinds of boys sent to the school and they require different types of treatment but experienced masters no doubt are able to apply that treatment, and perhaps they are tried over much in respect of the boys that are committed there. I do not pretend, and I would like that nobody would assume, that I have a full knowledge of the school from only one afternoon's visit but I am satisfied that an institution of the kind is very much better than anything in the nature of a prison or anything approaching what might be called a punitive institution.

We may ask, and rightly, what is to be done with boys who have had a bad training, who are in evil environment and who may become inured to the practices of older people round about them if they are not taken early and corrected and trained. Undoubtedly a large proportion of the boys who are committed to these schools—I am speaking at the moment of reformatory schools—if they were not so committed would become inured to criminal habits, and these habits it would be impossible to eradicate in after years. I think criminal habits are in the main the products of environment. I think in the main the number of persons who require to be sent to prison or who are sent to prison for anti-social practices adopt anti-social habits by virtue of their surroundings in childhood and youth.

It is well that there should be such schools when boys are at the stage of being committed perhaps for the first offence, perhaps only for the first offence which has been detected, perhaps the last of a series of offences. Nevertheless, the boy up to 16 years of age is capable of being reclaimed from criminal habits and prevented from degeneration of that kind, speaking generally. Of course, there are always exceptions but I think that we have to realise the possibility that these boys [1266] would become, if they were not saved from their surroundings for a period of years, a much greater charge upon the State, both directly and indirectly. If there were no such schools, there would have to be other institutions provided. I understand there is quite a near possibility that one or both of these schools may have to close down because of the absence of funds. The schools are capable of providing for 200 boys each or slightly more. In recent years, it appears, owing to a variety of causes, magistrates have been slow to commit boys, and, as a consequence, the schools are in receipt of a much lower capitation grant and the amount of voluntary subscriptions is not of course increasing. It would be very pleasing if we could be satisfied with the fact that only 75 boys should be at present in St. Kevin's Training School—that is Glencree Reformatory—whereas there used be 250; and that at St. Conlath's School there are only 27. If we could feel sure that these figures represented a great change in the character of boys during the last three or four years—that boys are not giving the same trouble to the police authorities to-day as they were at any time during five or ten years ago—it would be a source of great pleasure to us. I am afraid that that is not a correct deduction to draw, and that the explanation does not lie in the fact that the character of the boys is so very much superior to that of their predecessors. There may be reasons in the mind of the magistrates against committals to the school. I understand that some of the magistrates prefer short periods of detention in detention places, and I have no doubt that in many cases a short period of detention may be quite satisfactory and sufficient. But I certainly would say, unless there is definite evidence to the contrary, that the schools which we are dealing with are beneficial in the training of the boys. Their removal from an environment perhaps leading to criminal or semi-criminal practices is most desirable.

The position at present, as I understand it, and according to this Vote, is that there is a statutory obligation to pay 6/- per week, per boy, and a temporary additional grant is being made [1267] of 2s. per week. In addition to that there are payments made by the city or county from which the boys are sent. Taking all together, the allowances for the care, maintenance and training of the boys in these schools is 13/- per week; in some cases it is 14/- per week. That might be a satisfactory amount to enable these schools to be kept going if the normal number of boys were sent there. But in view of the policy of the magistrates and the shortage of inmates—or shall I call them boys in training—the schools are without sufficient monetary assistance. I think it would be very wise to consider this matter in the light of the schools. Perhaps owing to the fact that the responsible Ministry now and henceforth will be the Ministry of Education, there is some justification for hoping that the method of treating the schools will be rather different in the future. If the boys were sent to prison, they would cost a certain number of shillings per week to the State. If the boys were to remain at school they would cost a certain number of other shillings per week to the State. I think that if this question of the financing of the schools were considered in the light of the cost of education, as well as the cost of maintenance of the offenders, it would be seen that there is a call upon the State for a considerable increase in the grant. I think with that view of the State's relation to the schools, there would probably have to be some other conditions, and I do not know for certain to what extent my views on this matter would commend themselves to the authorities in charge of the schools. I have some reason to believe that they would not be unacceptable. I think that it might be a condition that the school hours should be made to conform more closely to the ordinary school hours in the National Schools, especially in the National Schools as we hope to see them when the leaving age will be much higher than it has been. I think, with regard to the boys above that compulsory attendance age, that the hours spent in technical training could be modified and made to conform to the requirements of the Department [1268] of Education. I would urge upon the Minister the desirability of entering into an arrangement with the authorities in charge of these schools to conform as fully as is possible in the circumstances to this higher educational test. I do so because many of these boys have not had the ordinary primary education that they would have had, had they been in other surroundings; they had not that primary education with the technical or semi-technical education that we would like boys of sixteen and seventeen years of age to receive. I think if the position of these schools were treated from the educational, primary and technical side, as well as from the point of view of segregation for a year or two in the most delightful surroundings that we would have a different tale to tell in a few years' time.

I do not want to say anything more at present, at any rate, in regard to the reformatory or training schools, but with respect to the industrial schools it has been brought to my notice that there is a considerable lack of care in the selection of the teachers who are training the boys, and in the actual quality of the training that is given. I do not know whether there is any real foundation for that or not. Again, I want to urge that the educational side of the school should be made to conform with the educational requirements both from the primary side and the technical side in so far as the boys are retained in school long enough to enter into any technical training whatever. I am inclined to think that the industrial school idea will have to be altered to a very great extent. Boys are not sent to the industrial schools after they are 12 years of age. They remain there for a few years. Again, many of these boys have not had the normal amount of primary education and I think it would be worth while to impress on the authorities in charge of the schools the necessity—not merely to impress upon them but to make it a condition to a greater extent than hitherto—that primary training should be made to conform to the higher requirements of the educational [1269] department and that we should not require or allow too large a portion of the time of the boys at that age to be spent in what is called industrial trades. My observation in one school did not give at all the same impression or pleasure that I had in my visit to Glencree. The boys were much younger, and seemed to be doing a good deal of comparatively heavy work, and I am very doubtful whether they were receiving the proper amount of education required by such children. I would urge that some attention should be paid to that side of the industrial school. My chief suggestion with regard to the industrial schools is that I urge they should be treated more as schools and less as a place of training for industry. I think the younger boys ought not to be set apart learning trades which they will probably never adopt, and which they will not learn satisfactorily at that age. There should not be specialised training for these boys until they come to the age of fourteen, and upwards. However, there are other Deputies who know more about industrial schools than I do, and I am sure others know more about reformatory schools. I am quite pleased to urge the desirability of considering the financial position of the reformatory schools. I do not know whether the Minister for Justice will suggest that some of us would be better off had we gone to such a reformatory school as this. I do not mind confessing that I think I would be a better man to-day if I had the chance of a few years experience at Glencree.

Professor MAGENNIS: It has been said that from statistics you can prove anything, and Deputy Johnson has laid his finger on a very striking example that would favour that view. I recollect that some years ago great credit was taken in England with regard to the reduction of intemperance, as proved by the decline in the number of arrests for drunkenness, which obviously was explicable by a decline in the activity of the police forces. Anyone who studies the statistics with regard to the leading reformatory schools, which Deputy Johnson has [1270] rightly praised so highly, would imagine that we had become ever so much better socially with regard to juvenile offences since the year 1904, or the year 1909. Then the number of inmates in what was known as the Glencree Reformatory was, I think, 264. Last year the number was only 66, and the return for the current year is 78, so that one who was hasty would rejoice in his heart that we have made such marvellous advance, that notwithstanding all irregularities of the last few years, and the decay and debasement of public morality among the adults, that at any rate the children had got off scot-free and escaped infection. The fact, however, is that, as in the parallel, the case I just mentioned in respect of drunkenness in England, it is not because there is less reason or ground for filling the school at Glencree, but because for a variety of reasons, some of which Deputy Johnson just now enumeratel, though the proper inmates exist and ought to be forthcoming, they are not forthcoming. One of the District Justices told me some time ago that the situation in this district filled him with alarm. To begin with, to get a boy into one of these institutions which would do him so much benefit, it is necessary to have him committed as a juvenile offender. The result is that very often for the reclamation of a boy who has careless or even criminal parents, it is necessary to procure his commitment artificially, so that he really is not an offender in the strict meaning of the word, but he is technically an offender for the purpose of his reclamation. Just as in the case of boys who are notoriously engaged in pilfering orchards, there were soft-hearted magistrates and soft-hearted police, and the boys were allowed to go off with a reprimand. The difficulty is to get children taken away from their evil surroundings at the proper time, and to submit them to this excellent training. If they are allowed to remain as they are they grow hardened in vice.

Many people give as an excuse, as in the case of my friend the District Justice, that they do not like to see those boys marked with the stigma which [1271] would follow them all through their lives of being reformatory boys. That is the idea derived from Dickens, where Oliver Twist is always open to the slur that he was a workhouse boy. In the case of what used to be called Glencree Reformatory a very admirable step, namely, the alteration of the name, was taken, which contributes to remove that stigma which was undeserved. It is no longer Glencree Reformatory but St. Kevin's Training School. That is, so far, to the good, but I have had occasion to remark that an excellent sermon is often delivered to those people who do not need it. The people who would benefit most by the sermon on Sunday are those who are not there, and those who would benefit most by St. Kevin's Training College are not there. We shall have to reform our own system or something else will have to be set on foot. Now, there are two things in this regard. First of all, as Deputy Johnson remarked, the fact that this Vote is taken in connection with the Ministry of Education marks a very long step in advance, so far as regards the Government's position towards those schools because it recognises them not as mere houses of correction and detention but as homes or educational institutions in which the evil tendencies that boys have already exhibited will be eradicated. They will be put in the way of becoming, as nearly all of them do become eventually, decent citizens.

I do not quite agree with the psychology of education laid down by Deputy Johnson. It is the only thing in his remarks which I do not endorse most heartily. Those in charge of St. Kevin's Training School belong to an Order from which I draw a great many of my students. Therefore I am in a position to know the type of man they have and the spirit which inspires them. Amongst their studies is included the psychology of education. It seems to me the course for each day that they provide for their pupils is directed largely to character and in the first stage, as I have just put it, to the eradication of evil tendencies. Therefore a large part of the day's curriculum is manual labour. This is a rather interesting programme. They call it a [1272] prospectus, a statement of St. Kevin's Training School issued in the present year. On working days the pupils rise at seven. After a bath, morning prayers, and Mass, they have breakfast at eight o'clock. Then, at eight-thirty, they have physical drill. At nine o'clock there is work in shops, garden, farm and tending stock. They have from three to four hours of that. At ten minutes past one they have parade and recreation. There is a long interval in the middle of the day for recovery and recuperation. At two o'clock there is recreation. At two-thirty work, as at nine a.m.; at four-thirty, singing lessons; at five o'clock, school; at six o'clock, supper; at six-thirty, recreation; at seven, school; at eight they have Irish classes; and at nine, bed.

The first part of the day is really technical, and then in the later hours, between recreation and lighter studies, you have the school work, the primary education work. It is really, if I may quote Tennyson in this connection, “Working out the beast.” Physical labour during the long hours in the earlier portion of the day is directed towards correction in the better sense. The types that are operated upon so benevolently and skilfully in those schools are of various sorts. They have of course what would be called in jargon “degenerates.” You have children of degenerate parents and also of reckless and careless parents, children who have been brought up, as Deputy Johnson put it, in an unwholesome atmosphere and who have not had an opportunity to develop the sense of right or wrong. Then others are really put there not because they are bad, but for fear they might be made so, and because they will receive this particular type of training which is so useful.

All that costs money. It is the unfortunate chorus to so many of those chansons that there is more money required. It is a pity in regard to reformatory schools that this year's estimate shows a reduction on last year's, because, as has been pointed out to the House just now, the amount received on the head of each of those inmates is only 13/-. That is made up of the Government [1273] grant of 8/- and the local authorities' contribution. I am informed that for a corresponding school certified of the same class in England —there is one in Yorkshire—the allowance is at the rate of 30/- per boy per week. In that part of Ireland which still is under British rule the contribution is 26/- per week. It is a pity that institutions such as those and its sister institutions controlled by the same order of educationists should be threatened with closing up through need of funds. There has been a steady drain upon the resources of the Order. That obviously cannot continue. The alternative is either to let these boys grow up in vice and swell the criminal classes or force the Minister for Justice to recruit a larger number of the Gárda Síochána, have more expenditure upon prisons and upon the convict system, buy an island somewhere and export them to it as to a penal settlement, or else make up our minds to come to the relief of these institutions. I realised long ago that, when we came to debate educational reforms and social reforms, the public would be likely to be astounded at the estimate of cost. That is what the public are invited to do to-day, to count the cost. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot have the type of boys of which I have spoken left unreclaimed and get away with it, with the State ultimately losing—losing not merely in what we can calculate in terms of money, but in what cannot be calculated in terms of money.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair.

Professor MAGENNIS: It is a question really of what other expenditure we can save, rather than a question of saving on this particular Estimate. I suggest to the Minister that this is the one Department in which it is altogether impolitic to make a saving.

Mr. McCULLOUGH: In looking over the Estimate, I find that the appropriations-in-aid in connection with those moneys amount to £430. It works out at about 8 per cent. of the total amount estimated to be procured. Two officers are employed to collect those [1274] moneys. Taking the cost of the office, it works out at about twenty per cent. I would suggest that some saving might be made in that cost and that a lesser percentage on collection could be obtained.

Mr. D'ALTON: I am interested in this question from another point of view, to see that the industrial schools are assisted to carry on efficiently, and that they will have suitable buildings, so as to be in a position to give the necessary training to the children sent to them. I consider, though the amount for industrial schools has been increased, it is inadequate. Those who know children that were sent to industrial schools appreciate the value of these schools and the necessity there is for them. Children of careless parents or children whose parents are dead, if not sent to these schools would later drift into the class that become habitual criminals. That class of children lack care and moral training and get no opportunities of learning a trade unless they are sent to such schools. I think it is the duty of the Dáil to see that the children of negligent parents are brought up so that they will be a benefit and not an injury to the State. It is well known that neglected children, who are not sent to industrial schools have the worst records so far as ordinary school attendance is concerned. The people who devote their lives to the training of these children perform a great work for the State. Anything that would make the people of this country realise the value of these institutions should be made known, as the children they deal with would otherwise grow up with criminal instincts and would certainly never go through the world without getting into trouble. I think it is the duty of the Dáil to see that these institutions are enabled to carry on their work efficiently. When this Vote come on again, I hope that the Deputies will press the Government further to assist these institutions.

Mr. WOLFE: It gave me great pleasure to hear what Deputy Johnson stated about his visit to Glencree because a personal opinion like that is of more value than a dozen books of [1275] statistics. It is pleasant to hear that the boys there are happy and that they get a chance of making their way in life and of being a credit to the country. I hope that Deputy Magennis's fear that the worst boys were not got hold of is not correct. I hope and believe that the youth of the country is improving and that greater care is given to education than was given to it twenty or thirty years ago. There is an improvement in the children, in their disposition and general bearing. Personally I take a very great interest in this matter because during the time that it was my lot— whether good or not—to sit upon the Bench as a magistrate, I had occasionally to deal with cases that came up, where the children were sent to these schools. I followed with interest the careers of several of those boys and I am glad to say that in the few cases I dealt with, they were most successful. They turned out a credit to the schools and to the country. From the curriculum that Deputy Magennis read out, I think the time of the boys seems to be very fully occupied.

Not a moment seems to be lost, and as far as I can discover there appears to be no allusion to holidays. I hope that they are not kept at the grind all the time from year's end to year's end, but that there is some kind of a break in their work. It is necessary for everyone to get a rest from work, no matter how important it may be. There should be, I think, a break for a holiday at certain periods of the year. I am sure the country will not grudge the money that is spent on these industrial schools when they see the good results that are achieved in them. Boys who might otherwise grow up irreclaimable and worthless, are, as a result of the years they spend in them, turned out useful citizens and become a credit and a support to the nation in their after lives. I think money could not be spent in any better way than on the upkeep of these institutions, and I am sure if more money is required for them, it will not be grudged, especially when the good results derived from it are realised.

[1276] Mr. HEWAT: This is a rather important Vote, although the amount involved is not a very large sum. Looking at it one is immediately struck by the satisfactory relationship that exists as between the expenses and the amount that goes to the maintenance of the youthful offenders in reformatories and industrial schools. The amount for maintenance is put down at £97,000, and for salaries, £3,624. That is a nice proportion compared with some of the proportions that we have had in connection with the estimates for other Departments.

Mr. JOHNSON: They are not comparable.

Mr. HEWAT: I cannot profess to have a great knowledge of these institutions, but as regards the boys who are sent to them, it would be interesting to know what proportion of them is permanently benefited by being sent there, and what proportion is found to be incorrigible. From hearsay, at all events, we sometimes learn about boys who, a short time after they leave these reformatory schools, find their way again into the criminal classes.

Mr. A. BYRNE: Not often.

Mr. HEWAT: I think fairly often.

Professor MAGENNIS: You hear about these?

Mr. HEWAT: That is so. The proportion of the boys who, after leaving the reformatory schools, find their way into wrong paths again, may be so small that you hear more about them than you do of the good results obtained as a result of the training given in these institutions. These institutions take in and deal with boys who have done something which merited their being dealt with by the law, or perhaps they were taken up under the Vagrancy Act and sent to these schools. One would need to be more conversant with the whole system to say whether there is any better method that could be devised for dealing with boys of this class. I am sure that every Deputy in the House realises the enormous importance of the work of dealing with these young boys who have lapsed for [1277] some cause or another. It is while they are young that they must be dealt with. That is necessary in the interests of the boy himself and of the country as a whole. On the face of the Vote, the amount of money spent on these institutions is not excessive, and I am sure no one will criticise it on that score. The only question is whether the system is on such good lines that no criticism could be brought forward to evolve a better method for dealing with boys of that class.

Mr. SEARS: I listened with great interest to the programme of study read out by Deputy Professor Magennis. It must have struck every Deputy as being an excellent programme. The boys appear to be well looked after and their studies to be well provided for. I am sure, too, they are well fed. Then we have had the account of Deputy Johnson's visit. That should satisfy the mind of any Deputy that the boys are well looked after. A question that arises is: what are the fruits of the whole system? We have been told of the visits to these schools of elderly men who were once pupils in them. They returned to visit the schools after spending their life-time in the world. I think no school could get a better testimonial than that. The attendance at these schools has fallen in 20 years from 260 to about 76. I contend that the morality of this nation has fallen considerably during those years. You cannot justify it in any way that you look at it from our own knowledge of the facts. It cannot reasonably be held, I think, that the morality of our boys went up by 400 per cent. while the morality of the general bulk of the people fell to some extent at any rate. What strikes me about it is this, that there is a grave dereliction on the part of magistrates in this matter. At present you have 76 boys there taken from the Saorstát. Surely we cannot say that that is the sum total of young offenders—I do not like to call them criminals—in the Saorstát. I knew boys myself who, when they were small, committed crimes, if you could call them crimes, and who afterwards grew up to be estimable members of society and to hold high positions, simply because [1278] they were looked after in their youth. I know that the number of boys that should be in Glencree, and in other schools, should not be 76, but should be 700. It would be better to have them there for the reason that they would be taken away from their present surroundings, where they have little but bad example before them. Their parents, perhaps, may be people who are sent to jail occasionally, or it may be that their parents are drunkards, as unfortunately too often is the case. It is unfortunate that magistrates should take the view that so many of them do take in dealing with boys of this class. If you had 700 pupils in those schools you would not be faced with the financial position that you are in to-day. That financial position has largely been brought about by the unfortunate attitude of mind of both parents and magistrates to these schools, which are really very estimable schools.

Mr. ALFRED BYRNE: I did not intend to speak on this Vote, and would not have done so but for the speech of the last speaker. I think his speech was a most appalling one. I do not think he really intended to express views whose meaning to me seemed to be that the magistrates had been neglecting their duty and showing mercy to some boys brought before them. I hope the magistrates will not take these views as representing the view of the Dáil that they should be more strict in dealing with the boys and sending them to those reformatories and training schools. A great many Deputies, of whom I am one, have had on many occasions mothers, and parents generally, of boys calling upon them, broken-hearted mothers and fathers calling and complaining about their children having been taken away from them and sent to reformatory schools and industrial schools for periods of five and six years at a time, and asking to have a memorial got up and presented to the Minister for Justice. Within the past twelve months many members of this House were made aware of an incident that occurred as a result of the South Dublin by-election, in which a number of little boys engaged in celebrating [1279] the victory of one of the candidates at the time lit a fire, as a result of which a paper stores was broken into in order to make the fire larger in celebration of the victory. One of the little boys was arrested next day.

The PRESIDENT: Whose victory was it?

Mr. BYRNE: It was a Cumann na nGaedheal victory. One of the little boys was arrested the following day and brought before the magistrate. The boy's father was serving in the Army as a driver and I think the sentence, on account of the boy's age—he was only eight or nine—was that he was sent to a reformatory where he was to be detained until he reached the age of sixteen.

The PRESIDENT: As a matter of information for the Deputy, children cannot be committed to a reformatory under the age of twelve.

Mr. BYRNE: I am not going to state the age of the boy, but he was a little nipper, apparently not more than ten years old. He was dressed by his mother in the green cloth of a National Army soldier as his father was serving in the Army at the time. However, after the mother had practically broken her heart for three or four months waiting on Deputies asking them to sign a memorial, the Minister for Justive very graciously and very justly allowed the boy to be released. I want to know whether if these schools are failing—and I know the good work done in Glencree Reformatory and the Artane School—it is because these schools have not sufficient attendance that they do not get more grants from the Government, and I want to know whether the last speaker is serious in his statement that in order to secure whatever grants may be made by the Government he wants more young boys committed to reformatories. That is the gist of his speech. I hope magistrates dealing with these boys will not think he is expressing the views of Deputies in this House.

The late Recorder, now Mr. Justice O'Shaughnessy, at all times when boys [1280] came before him adopted the policy that where guarantors or some reliable person could be got to look after those boys he allowed them out sooner than send them to reformatories. I think the Recorder was quite right in his actions, because some of the boys he allowed out and thus escaped the reformatory brand, turned out exceptionall well. I would like to see the Government maintaining these schools and giving a decent grant to keep them ready for boys that it is considered necessary by magistrates to send to them for training, but I sincerely hope, and I will watch with interest this time twelvemonths to see the commitments to industrial schools and reformatories, that the numbers will not be increased and that the magistrates will not take the advice given by the Deputy who has just spoken.

Mr. SEARS: My intention was to save those boys in the same way as that old man who met Deputy Johnson at Glencree Reformatory. I am sure everybody will say that the average boy turned out of these schools is ninety per cent. higher than the average of the boys Deputy Byrne saved from Glencree Reformatory.

Mr. BYRNE: I did not save any of them, but I prefer to see them at home with their fathers and mothers.

The PRESIDENT: However that may be, the fact is that during the last few years this city has not benefited much by the extraordinarily lopsided soft-heartedness which we have heard from Deputy Byrne. Deputy Byrne, if his son misbehaved himself, would read him a lecture and so on and say better not do that any more. That may be all right but it does not work.

Mr. BYRNE: Why did you make a man a High Court Judge who refused to send boys to these reformatories.

The PRESIDENT: We did not make a man a High Court Judge because he did not send boys to Glencree reformatory; that was not the reason. If the Deputy knew more about that particular case probably he would say less [1281] about it. Deputy Byrne as a member of the Dublin Corporation went occasionally to Glencree Reformatory. Did he come back with his heart torn asunder and tears streaming from his eyes after seeing the boys there?

Mr. BYRNE: The President may sneer but that is not the argument.

The PRESIDENT: I do not know whether his heart was torn or whether he had tears in his eyes when he saw those boys in Glencree. There are decent men and women in this city whose boys are there, and if the Deputy's recommendations for that particular school were to be taken they are in a worse place than if they were in jail. Why does not the Deputy tell those unfortunate fathers and mothers that their boys are well cared for there?

Mr. BYRNE: I said I know they are.

The PRESIDENT: What is the Deputy crying about. He complained of a very young child a while ago of tender years being sent to the reformatory, and when I tripped him up he told us he was wrong and raised the age immediately.

Mr. BYRNE: I beg your pardon, I did not raise it.

The PRESIDENT: The child was mentioned as eight years old, and directly I informed the Deputy that at that age a child would not be taken into the school, he raised the age to ten years. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. These institutions are necessary. They are as necessary as the punishment code in our Army Acts and the criminal code in this country for which the Deputy votes money and votes to tax the people in order to get that money. The Deputy need not go and tell the people of his constituency that he is the only soft-hearted man in this assembly and the only man whose heart is bleeding for the suffering people. Everyone of us has feelings as well as the Deputy and we realise that it is our duty and responsibility to those young boys in their own interests, and in the interests of the future of the [1282] country, to have them corrected when they go wrong. It is our duty, too, to let magistrates know if through some sloppy soft-heartedness, such as the Deputy has given expression to, they are not doing their duty—if they do not remember that these institutions are there to correct young boys. The Deputy has gone as many citizens have gone on many occasions to admire at public functions the performances given by a number of those boys. I am not going to mention those particular functions, but if it were not Glencree Reformatory, whose school caused the Deputy such suffering, he would not be able to enjoy himself as much as he did.

This particular school is a credit to the State—absolutely a credit to the State. The Deputy need not frighten the magistrates regarding their duty. If the magistrates would go up there and see the schools they would get rid of this ridiculous prejudice that there is against this particular institution. If the Deputy would go up there, he could go to those broken-hearted mothers that he talks about, and tell them that their sons are being well-cared for there. I am satisfied in my own mind that, owing to persons in authority not sending children there, the last few years have been costly for this State and for this city. I am perfectly satisfied as to that. If the Deputy thinks I am afraid to tell the citizens of Dublin that, I say to him that I am prepared to go out and tell them any time he likes. I do not mind telling them the truth at any time, even though some of them may not like to hear it. I think it would be very bad for the public life of this country if we were not prepared to tell the people the truth. Institutions such as this must be kept up. We must have prisons. We must have places of correction for youth. We must be prepared to answer such questions as were put by Deputy Hewat when he said that he had heard that some of the pupils of institutions like this were not a success in life. Owing to prejudice against institutions of this class, the question is put: “Where did this particular non-success come from?” and the answer is: “Oh! from a reformatory!” [1283] If the non-success came from Trinity College, these people would say: “Oh, the poor fellow!” If the non-success came from the National University, they would say: “What a pity; he had a good father and a good mother.” But in the case of the reformatory: “Oh, we knew that; it was bound to come. What could you expect.” One does not explore the history of those who have been real successes and who came from this particular place. But if the Deputy, or any of the soft-hearted mothers that are knocking about, have any fears on the question, I will bring them to a place where they will see a number of those boys who are a credit, not alone to this institution, but to the State.

Mr. JOHNSON: May I add a few words in supplement to what I said? I have been making a little examination of another account, and I think that if one would take into account the cost of maintaining a patient in Dundrum Asylum—£29 a year—and add to that the cost of teaching, one would find a sufficient difference between what is at present paid and what would be involved to save the institution from the necessity, as I suggest, for closing. I thought I might have been able to finish the calculation before the debate closed, but I just draw attention to [1284] these two points now. There is the cost of maintenance of a patient in Dundrum Asylum—food and clothing— and the cost of teaching 138 boys. One can bear in mind that Deputy Hewat's comparison is not quite right, because of the fact that there are no charges in this Vote for the superintendence or care of the institution. The grant that is paid is towards the cost of rationing and clothing the boys. Is there any chance that the Minister is going to respond with any promise of an additional sum to that which is at present given as capitation grant?

Professor MAGENNIS: Under the Constitution, it is not in our competence to move an increase; consequently we can only make an appeal.

Mr. BLYTHE: I had this matter under consideration at one time and then it was thought that there might be a speedy increase in the number. That anticipation has not been fulfilled and the matter will certainly be considered further in the light of the fact that the numbers are remaining low and that it would be something in the nature of a calamity—though not a great calamity—if it were to happen that the institutions should not be continued.

Vote put and agreed to.